Posts by cognizant dissident

74

Should suicidal or self destructive people have free will?

by The Dragon in

been going through my head lately....if you try to prevent them from doing what they want...they see you as the enemy...but are you?.

if you take away their freedom to do so.....are they no longer free?

will they hate you...or thank you when they come to their senses?.

cognizant dissident

I think if people have really decided to end their life and are serious about it, they rarely tell anyone, they just do it. Those who talk about it may be seriously planning, but by talking to others, no matter how vaguely, they are still reaching out for a smidgen of hope from their fellow man. If they are still talking then they are asking for intervention, in my opinion, no matter how resistant they may act. They are desperately saying, "give me a reason to live for I can no longer see one". So yes, it is incumbent on us all to intervene and help them to see a reason to live when they no longer can. It often takes time and medication. I am speaking as one who has suffered severe clinical depression myself and now see the preciousness of everyday of life and try to find some joy in each day no matter how painful some of those days are. I know what is like to be in the pit of black despair and I am greatful for those who reached into that pit and gave me a hand up into the light. Life is short enough, we don't have to hurry it along any faster.

Free will is relative. No one should have free will to harm others or themselves. However, even suicidal people need to be given as much dignity and free will as they can handle while they are recuperating. It is no excuse to take away another person's dignity as so many psyche wards have done to mental health patients in the past. Thank goodness those attitudes are slowly changing with better education of health professionals.

Psychotic disorders, such as schizophrenia, can also respond well to drug treatment and so intervention is warranted also.

Depression is extremely common in the elderly and those who are sick and needs to be treated as seriously as depression in the young and not just written off as a necessary part of aging.

Euthanisa is such a controversial topic and a big no no for health professionals to even mention. Those with a terminal illness who think they want to die with dignity with help from others better make their arrangements early while still in sound mind, because it would be very difficult for any health professional to help them. I wouldn't even attempt to say whether this is right or wrong, but I understand both sides of issue and wouldn't judge either. The decision must be the terminally ill person's not the "helper's". It would be better if they could do it with no helper as the person helping would be subject to prosecution for murder. Part of the problem is the lack of adequate pain control for the terminally ill. Things are getting better in that regard all the time. I am all for doping people with terminal cancer into oblivion if that is what they need to be comfortable in their final hours. I would hope doctors and nurses would have that much mercy for me if I were in that situation. Again, patients should have much more autonomy in such matters and I see health care moving towards that goal.

Cog

31

I never have done right by you...

by Sparkplug in

jw
friends

in talking to my mom the other day (who is doing so well btw) she turned to me and said straight and as sane as can be, "i have never done right by you, don't do as i have done to you to you kids.

" she got teary eyed and i changed the subject fast because i did not know how to take it nor could i talk with the big lump in my throat.

i have known this my whole life, and i don't even speak it as plain as she has spoken it, but hearing out of her mouth as she sits in her wheelchair and knowing she means it from her heart and from pure love, well it messed me up a bit.

cognizant dissident

When I told my mom I wouldn't come to her house to visit her anymore as long as my stepfather was there, she asked me why and I said because I can't pretend any longer. I have never gotten over the fact that he molested me and when I told you, you did nothing about it. You just pretended nothing happened and you told me to pretend and keep it a secret from my father. Everytime I come to your house, I feel sick inside, and have nightmares for days beforehand. Everytime your husband tries to force money on me, I feel like I a prostitute. I just can't do it anymore. You are welcome in my house, but he is not and I never want to see him again as long as I live. This was was 25 years after he molested me before I got up the courage to stop pretending. My mother broke down and cried and said she was sorry for ruining my life. She said she felt so sorry for what she had done to us kids. I told her my life wasn't ruined, I refuse to give HIM that much power.

Honestly, it did give me some satisfatction that she finally acknowledged the damage she had done by exposing us to a violent, drunk, wife beating, child molester. I knew she felt bad so I didn't feel the need to throw it up in her face and beat her with it again and again. (My mother was abused as a child also, by her own father). I won't lie and say that made all my anger go away, though. It still comes back up now and again, especially when my mother does something very selfish or says something very hurtful or verbally abusive to me. She still does this sometimes. She has a mild case of bi-polar I think. I'm not sure. It could just be the "crazies" from the way she was raised. An inordinate number of people with mental health diagnosis also have histories of abuse. Gee, do you think there might be some connection, there?

So, yes, it does make you feel better to be validated but it doesn't automatically take away all the pain and hurt and make it better. And it does not mean you need to spend more time with the person if it is not healthy for you. Take care of yourself first. That is what they did. If you need to try and fix it, focus on making it better for the next generation, your kids. That's what I try to do.

Cog

16

Albert Einstein said:

by Sasha in

jw
friends

if the bees ever disappear, man will die in 4 years.

the bee's are disappearing..

cognizant dissident

The creatures that run this planet want the global population reduced to 500 million.

Can you provide any quotes or references to substantiate this statement?

Cog

47

Why does being right = being arrogant?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

what is it about a person's believing they are "right" that leads them to being arrogant?

you've surely noticed that the more sure a person is that he's right, the more likely he is to treat those that disagree with him with disrespect.

it's hard to see how a person can disagree with something that you know is right.

cognizant dissident

Abbadon

and it makes little difference; people don't like being told they are wrong no matter what sauce you serve with it.

Very funny and very true! I think you just summed up my very wordy post in one line. I may steal this line from you in the future.

I also am learning that being "wrong" is only a bad thing if we make it a bad thing. I feel very "wrong" and stupid and gullible for being fooled by watchtower beliefs for 40 years. My "ego" was very attached to believing I am intelligent and right. Actually it still it is, but I would rather be wrong than still be enslaved to that "story" any longer. Humility, and admitting the possibility that we are wrong, is the first step to being open to learning wonderful new things. There is more of this world and universe than any of us know. Being "experts" means having all the answers already. Experts have no need to look further and investigate further. Now that's arrogance!

I agree with you about the need to question and hold "truths" that are presented to us up to a higher standard of evidence. That would go along way to eliminating many misconceptions and much ignorance in the world. I think most people trust and believe what is spoon fed to them by parents, teachers, politicians, media, and religious leaders, much to easily. Questioning and asking for further evidence and proof before we go along with other's beliefs, theories and hypotheses is NOT to be confused with arrogance. This is a sign of wisdom and greater intelligence. It can be done in a humble and respectful way also. But boy, when I do it, does it ever piss other people off! Especially my family and other JW's! Not only do other people not like to be told they are wrong, but even if you don't tell them they are wrong or try to argue to prove yourself right, but only quietly and respectfully say that you do not agree with them or are not convinced of their assertions, that can escalate their anger to mammoth levels. Truth tellers, tread carefully!

Cog.

47

Why does being right = being arrogant?

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

what is it about a person's believing they are "right" that leads them to being arrogant?

you've surely noticed that the more sure a person is that he's right, the more likely he is to treat those that disagree with him with disrespect.

it's hard to see how a person can disagree with something that you know is right.

cognizant dissident

Great question. I believe the answer is quite complex though.

First of all, it has to do with differing perceptions. To use an example most of us are familiar with, how can two people read a Watchtower, or the Bible, or exerience the same event together in the same moment in time and space and yet come to totally different conclusions? One says, "Oh, wasn't that an upbuilding article in the Watchtower today?" Another says, "I found it depressing, I could barely sit through it." One person reads the Bible and believes, "Yes, it is the word of God!". Another says, "These are just made up stories!". They have both read the exact same words. Yet their perceptions differ because they overlay their own meanings and stories on top of the words (facts) they read or the events they experience. Yet the mind cannot conceive of its own perceptions being "wrong". They are both absolutely "right" in their own minds.

Another example, from when I was in nursing: two women share the same hospital room at the same time, have the same nurse, receive the same food, and the same treatment. One believes she has never been treated so well and taken care of so well in her life, the other believes she has never been treated so poorly and can't wait to get out of there. The events (facts) were the same, but they have overlayed their own personal meanings and histories/stories on to their identical experiences and come to two totally opposite conclusions. They both are absolutely convinced that their perceptions are "correct".

I think understanding the process of how we form our beliefs about what we know is "right" or "true" is key. Those who understand the process can often see how others perspectives come into being and can have compassion, empathy, and show respect for the person regardless of whether they accept that the other person's beliefs are factual/right or not.

Arrogance, and bullying tactics in arguing, is often used both by those who are factually correct and those who may be factually wrong. It is more of a manifestation of how attached their identities and egos are to being "right". Some people have a deathly fear of being "wrong". In some instances, it is only their ego identity at stake, in other's they believe their very lives are at stake. JW's are the perfect example of this. Being "wrong" about their beliefs in God and the Bible means death at Armageddon. In other religions, being "wrong" can mean eternal damnation in a fiery hell. If I thought I was going to burn forever in hell for being "wrong" or die at Armageddon, I would be very attached to being "right" also and I was for many years!

I think the scientific method does have advantages when gathering the facts, but that does not mean that individual scientists do not lay down their own meanings onto the facts they have gathered and that their egos are not very attached to those meanings. Perhaps they do not believe their eternal salvation is at stake, but their esteem in the eyes of their colleagues, their jobs, or even their attachment to the belief that they are a "superior", intelligent person and "superior", intelligent persons cannot be "wrong", is at stake and is still a very poweful motivator.

So both sides can be subject to these very powerful motivations to be "right" at all costs. The "cost" is usually respecting other peoples feelings, dignity as a person, and right to hold a differing opinion or "meaning" than us. Humility is the opposite of arrogance, and means accepting that others still deserve to be treated and spoken to with respect wether they are "right" or "wrong". It also means accepting the possibility, that our own meanings and conclusions we have laid down over the facts, may also prove to be wrong some day. Bullying, name calling, insulting others in arguments has nothing to do with facts and being "right" or "wrong". It is about trying to control how other's view the facts and force them into accepting our "meanings". It is about demanding the respect and importance we believe we deserve for whatever reason. This has little to do with actual intelligence and everything to do with needing to be important and superior in the eyes of others.

We've all seen a lot of this behaviour in the WBTS. Many have carried this trait over into this forum and will continue to do so until they can look beyond the "facts" and the "truth" and look at the process.

Cog.

40

Alec Baldwin goes off on daughter over the phone

by MsMcDucket in

i guess he and kim basinger are having a custody battle.

.

http://www.tmz.com/2007/04/19/alec-baldwins-threatening-message-to-daughter/.

cognizant dissident

Which part of what I said was bullshit? You asked why the media would try to make us feel sorry for a mass murderer and villify a celebrity and I postulated a theory. I never said I agreed with it or thought it was right or that I felt sorry for Cho. I'm not even sure you are accurate in your statement that the media is trying to make us have sympathy for Cho. You didn't provide any quotes to show them doing this. I haven't heard or read any such quotes. As for your "tell it to the parents" statement, I wouldn't dream of telling anything to the parents of murder victims except "I'm sorry for your grief and loss". I was also too busy crying over what happened like a lot of other people.

Please don't read more into my posts than was stated.

Cog

40

Alec Baldwin goes off on daughter over the phone

by MsMcDucket in

i guess he and kim basinger are having a custody battle.

.

http://www.tmz.com/2007/04/19/alec-baldwins-threatening-message-to-daughter/.

cognizant dissident

Why is the media ready to hang Alec Baldwin, but they are trying to get us to have sympathy for the cold blooded killer of 33 people, Cho?

Because Cho was poor, alienated and mentally disturbed, whereas Alec Baldwin is rich, famous and mentally disturbed. We do love to see the rich and famous fall off their pedestals, don't we?

Cog

91

Sister Pioneer and Her 10 Year Secret of Porneia

by bluesapphire in

jw
friends

when i was studying, the sister who studied with me was a pioneer and as "righteous-overmuch" as they come!

i wasn't even baptized and she was already pressuring me to pioneer since i didn't work.

nevermind that i had three little girls all under 4!!!.

cognizant dissident

Well, I can understand your desire to see miz self-righteous, high and mighty dubette get what she deserves. However, I agree with Wanderer. Outing someone for whatever reason can set into motion a chain of events that once started could have disastrous repercussions and be unstoppable.

This is a worst case scenario, but it is not unheard of for mentally unbalanced people to kill themselves at the thought of public shame and humiliation. Those with the biggest ego's and the most "image conscious" also have the most to lose with public exposure. How would you feel if your revelations were the spur for such an action on her part? Would that be more come-uppance than you had planned or hoped for.

What of the devastation of children from broken families?

What if her husband were to beat her or kill her in a jealous rage?

I know the chances of these outcomes may be small, but I personally know of witnesses who have killed themselves for less and ones who have murdered their wives. So it could happen. Why risk it for a moment of personal satisfaction?

As a general rule, I think is not a good idea to play with other people's lives.

Cog

27

"The Red Corvette" problem -- a disconnect in view points

by AlmostAtheist in

jw
friends

in another thread, a poster brought up what he called "the red corvette" problem.

the problem, he said, is that if you are a true atheist, you must believe that a red corvette could simply form out of nothing.

if you believe life originated from nothing, then you must believe that a less-complicated machine such as a sports car could also have originated from nothing.

cognizant dissident

In the case of the Corvette, it DID evolve. It evolved from the first tool created by man, probably a digging stick.

Which eventually led to metallurgy, etc. The red Corvette is a culmination of thousands of years of evolution.

But it was an evolution directed by intelligence.

Actually, the Corvette DID NOT evolve and neither did any other tool designed by man. It was the knowledge and intelligence in tool making abilities of homo-sapiens that evolved over thousands of years until they were able to design and produce sophisticated tools such as cars.

As has been pointed out earlier, corvettes and all man made tools are inorganic, insensient and non self-replicating. The real "problem of the Red Corvette" is that the analogy to organic, sensient, self-replicating life forms is so weak as to be useless to the discussion of evolution or abiogenesis.

Cog

40

Alec Baldwin goes off on daughter over the phone

by MsMcDucket in

i guess he and kim basinger are having a custody battle.

.

http://www.tmz.com/2007/04/19/alec-baldwins-threatening-message-to-daughter/.

cognizant dissident

For all of you who are minimizing this verbal and emotional abuse on the grounds that poor Alec is so angry and frustrated because of a messy divorce and his wife turning his child against him, did it ever occur to you that perhaps that type of abuse is the exact reason his little girl doesn't want to answer his phone calls? How do we know this is a one time incident? How do we know that Kim and her daughter were not subjected to years of this sort of emotional and verbal abuse and perhaps much worse? If this is how Alec explodes when his phone calls are not answered, how does he react when something really goes wrong?

We do not know the full history and all the details of their marriage. I'm a private person too, and am not a big fan of airing one's dirty family laundry in public. Sometimes, women and children who have been subjected to years of verbal, emotional, or any kind of abuse have been silenced for years. Part of the healing process is to expose the abuse and the abuser for what he is, so they can no longer hide behide their facade of "nice guy", "pillar of the community", "super celebrity" or whatever guise of "normalcy" they try to present to the world. Many on this forum have been subjected to abuse by elders and family. Some choose to air their grievances publicly and some keep private. We try to understand and respect the reasons underlying both reactions. So, being that we do not have all the facts of the matter, let's not be too quick to jump to conclusions and judge. That's what family court is for. Just consider the other possibilites first.

Cog